Here is the third installment of my vigorous debate with missionary (of unknown origin) Paul Cohen.
no talking sense to an ignorant, belligerent, idolatrous, beast.
Here is the hypocrisy of some Christians. How many millions of people have died at the hand of Christians? And you all “turn the other cheek?” You want to explain that, Esav? You are describing yourself. If you were a man of peace, why do you use such hostile language?
the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ’s words
There is no truth in idolatry. In fact, we know that Yeshu lived several hundred years before Christians claim he did because we know who his teacher was (Joshua ben Perachya יהושע בן פרחיה).
What we see in him, however, is a dog dressed up as a Jewish religious fanatic
I’ve been called worse things by better people. I think with you Paul we see clearly that that Theory of Evolution has serious flaws!
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees..
Well, all Jews living today are, for the most part Pharisees. So basically this is addressed to Jews. Why not say woe unto Sadducees? Are they somehow off the hook because they were a heretical group? You only go after Torah Jews? I get the feeling that Christianity is basically like the Reform and Conservative movements in that its sole existence is dedicated to whining about Orthodox Judaism. This only shows frustration and desperation.
Watch and see who collects the wages of blasphemy.
Blasphemy? First of all you need to understand that the language that you use isn’t the language of Judaism. There is another vernacular and language that is used with Torah Judaism and what you are talking about is a reaction to religion-not religion itself. All of these fancy shmancy quotes from the “NT” are famous within the Christian world but are meaningless in the context of Judaism. Your hero was Yeshu was a heretic who duped people like yourself into a life of idolatry and hatred. The Talmud described how Yeshu resorted to idolatry and brought others with him:
This is describing Christians for sure. Do you really think that Orthodox Jews are going around looking for converts? This statement makes no sense, and other Christians have told me as such.
you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves
Is this from a Stephen King novel? Christians and their hell obsessions. I think the reason for this is explain in the following Gemara (Talmud):
Israel is a secular country. America, with a Christian majority has a very similar problems! Wanna explain that one?
…who deny and mock the God of Israel?
This is you Paul.
But Israel and the Torah, being two of Justin’s gods,…
I see Christians come through here regularly-are you going to tell me that staunch Christians don’t worship Israel? Your ploy of “Jewish idolatry” only works when talking about the early Christians.
play the part of the hero that he might receive praise of men.
You are the missionary-don’t play innocent. You have a “platform” of spiritual terror against Jews. You mock my stance because you don’t have the ability to defend against it.
his efforts to defend Israel and the Torah bring shame on both…
I love it how Christians like to play “Big Daddy Adviser!” You honor Israel and the Torah, Paul? You burn the Torah in your heart, and your fellow Christians have burned Torah scrolls in the past. You are not in a position to give warnings about whom G-d’s wrath is directed at.
The oral tradition is always wrong when it goes against His Recorded Word.
It was Jewish sages who chose the books of the Scriptures and their order. Go back and read our previous discussions. Your statement here is a contradiction. Furthermore the Torah doesn’t say how to perform the commandments listed within it. This is what heretics like you want-to confuse Jews and prevent them from performing the will of G-d. Nice trick.
Lacking contact with God, the Jews proceeded to add their own carnal thoughts and interpretations to the Tenach, which, whether oral or written, represent the erroneous opinions of men and are not the Word of God.
Substitute the word “Jew” with the name “Paul” (you or the original one) and then this sentence is correct!
It is self-righteous, self-important, wicked nonsense, believed by those who vaunt themselves in such evils.
This is a jealous tantrum against the Nation of Israel-the mark of Cain. Just as Cain killed Abel in a jealous tantrum-so you, Paul, stab away at your own nation in a pathological frenzy.
they try to substitute for their lack by making up lying stories, which dishonor Him, and His Book stands as witness against them, to their shame.
You are referring to the “apostles” and the “New Testament?” Go and read my reply above-this is a jealous rant. You could care less about “The One who wrote the Torah.” Stop pretending that you care about Judaism and it’s tenants.
I want to comment here that if you quote any other source than the Orthodox Jewish (Artscroll, Soncino, ect.) I simply won’t reply to your comments. Here is an example of why.
The King James version of the “Bible” says:
He never gave anyone permission to change His Laws:
“Christmas” and Satan-Claus were concocted by men. Perhaps you should address that. Simchat Torah and Shemini Atzeret are celebrated on the same day in Israel-go read previous discussions. You don’t observe Shemini Atzeret anyway, so don’t pretend to care about “His Laws.”
man-ordained rabbis
Rabbinical Ordination is a tradition passed down from Moses to Joshua, ect. You are the Bible-thumper-go check your sources. Furthermore I gave you the source from the Torah that gives Jewish sages the authority to interpret and institute enactments. Here is a passage from Esther which contradicts your claims:Esther Chapter 9
The Jews no longer have either, the priesthood or the tabernacle,
Yes, the Wicked Roman Empire and its spiritual offshoots had tried their best to knock over the humble Booth of David but they haven’t and will not succeed.
Furthermore, the judgments the priests or judge gave was according to the Law,
Yes! And that includes their judgment of Yeshu.
The “Shulchan Aruch” is another treacherous piece of spiritual knavery, abusing God’s Word.
Substitute “Shulchan Aruch” with “The New Testament” and add a few more derogatory remarks and then you have the truth.
to impress us with the fact that Justin considers himself just such a convert
Nope-I am pointing out that the prophet Ovadia, who was a convert, is seldom quoted by Thumpers because they don’t want to (or don’t know) show that a convert to Judaism had prophesied doom for that nation he came from-because of its abuse of Israel. You, like all missionaries quote what is convenient to you-you don’t accept scriptures as a whole, as the Jews did at Mount Sinai. This shows the truth of the Mishrash I quoted before about all other nations rejecting the Torah, but the Jews innocently and faithfully agreeing.
twice the child of hell of the religious Jews who have fathered him
Once, twice, three times a lady? This is Christianity in all its inbred stupidity. Stop with this hell crap-hell is only for Christians.
But since when can this man be counted on to speak the truth?
This man? Huh? Ovadia was a prophet! Hypocrite! Phony Thumper! Heretic! Christian!
Titus 1:10-12 MKJV
especially those of the circumcision,
It is a commandment in the Torah to be circumcised. Titus was a murderous monster-and the heretics have dared name a “book” after him? Why not name a chapter “Satan,” “Jezebel,” or “Ahmadinejad?” Read the Tanach and then the “New Testament.” Do you not sense a difference? One sense you feel is the Divine and the other profane.
I have given you my bio in these discussions. If you do not tell me your background, Paul, then I simply won’t respond to or publish your response. I think that is a fair request.
______________________________________________________________
Paul’s original letter:
Answering a Twofold Child of Hell
Justin, there is no talking sense to an ignorant, belligerent, idolatrous, beast. In your perversion and senseless twisting of everything we say you demonstrate the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ’s words:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves” (Matthew 23:15).
For the sake of those who may read your blog (if there are any), and for those who come to our site, I will comment on several of your darkened expressions that provide a worthy platform for illumination by the Light of all men.
We say to those who read these words: Watch and see who collects the wages of blasphemy. If we are what Justin says we are, surely we will collect those wages. But if Justin has mocked and cursed the LORD, then God will scorn him and his curses will fall on his own head. It will not be long before all is made known, even as it is presently for those with eyes to see.
First comment:
“The Torah, Israel , and G-d are One”
Spoken like the true idolater and pretentious sycophant he is.
Does God make Himself one with the world? Isn’t Israel part of and acting like the world? Why else does Israel look to the world for help? Wouldn’t Israel be looking to God if it were one with Him?
Is Israel one with the Torah? “Gay pride” parades, rock-throwing lawless religious fanatics, and fearful God-deniers who will give the land God gave them to the Muslims, who deny and mock the God of Israel? Where does anyone get the idea that these attitudes reflect what is commanded in the Torah?
But Israel and the Torah, being two of Justin’s gods, have made him blind to reality and God’s righteousness. Justin has no use for either of his objects of worship, except that they give him a platform to play the part of the hero that he might receive praise of men. Meanwhile, his efforts to defend Israel and the Torah bring shame on both, and the wrath of God on him.
Justin: “If you read Rashi, which brings information that is missing in other interpretations other than Orthodox Judaism, he explains that it was an angel within the bush that spoke out to Moses NOT G-d Himself. This is how mistranslation and misinterpretation misleads and leads one to go off the path of Judaism. If you don’t refer to the Oral tradition, it is no wonder you err in your understanding of Jewish Scriptures.”
Paul: Rashi is rash, and wrong, according to Moses, who reports what happened at the bush:
“And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God” (Exodus 3:6 MKJV).
No one but God can claim to be God, without lying, and God does not send liars to speak on His behalf. The oral tradition is always wrong when it goes against His Recorded Word.
Justin: “The past 2,000 years have been without prophesy. Because of the decline in generations, that which was understood and transmitted verbally is now written down.”
Paul: The past 2,000 years the Jews have been without prophecy. Which, in timing, is a huge clue to why that is so, but that is lost on a dog. (Now the prophetic word has come back to Israel : The Key for Israel and the Jew.)
Lacking contact with God, the Jews proceeded to add their own carnal thoughts and interpretations to the Tenach, which, whether oral or written, represent the erroneous opinions of men and are not the Word of God.
Justin: “Essentially this Midrash explains that G-d offered all of the nations the Torah and each had an excuse why it didn’t suit them. The Jews, before knowing what it was eagerly accepted it because they wanted to fulfill they will of G-d.”
Paul: Who believes this crap? It is self-righteous, self-important, wicked nonsense, believed by those who vaunt themselves in such evils. It is certainly not what the Word of God says; not even close.
Here is what the one who wrote much of the Torah had to say to the nation who inherited it:
Deuteronomy 31:26-27 MKJV
(26) Take this Book of the Law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, so that it may be there for a witness against you.
(27) For I know your rebellion and your stiff neck. Behold, while I am still alive with you today, you have been rebellious against the LORD. And how much more after my death?
Isn’t it something how those who seek to worship the Torah for their own glory pervert It instead? Instead of obeying God and receiving the high honor of His calling and great benefits that come by walking in His ways, they try to substitute for their lack by making up lying stories, which dishonor Him, and His Book stands as witness against them, to their shame.
When God made a nation out of Israel in the furnace of Egypt , did they want to fulfill His will? Even if they said they wanted to, what was the reality? Here is but a sampling of what God has said of the matter:
Psalms 78:1-72 KJV
(5) For He established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a Law in Israel , which He commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
(6) That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:
(7) That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep His commandments:
(8) And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.
(9) The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle.
(10) They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in His Law;
(11) And forgat His works, and His wonders that He had shewed them.
(12) Marvellous things did He in the sight of their fathers, in the land of Egypt , in the field of Zoan.
(13) He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through; and he made the waters to stand as an heap.
(14) In the daytime also He led them with a cloud, and all the night with a light of fire.
(15) He clave the rocks in the wilderness, and gave them drink as out of the great depths.
(16) He brought streams also out of the rock, and caused waters to run down like rivers.
(17) And they sinned yet more against Him by provoking the most High in the wilderness.
(18) And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
(19) Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?
(20) Behold, He smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can He give bread also? can He provide flesh for his people?
(21) Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel ;
(22) Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in His salvation:
(23) Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven…
(30) They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,
(31) The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel .
(32) For all this they sinned still, and believed not for His wondrous works.
(33) Therefore their days did He consume in vanity, and their years in trouble.
(34) When He slew them, then they sought Him: and they returned and enquired early after God.
(35) And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
(36) Nevertheless they did flatter Him with their mouth, and they lied unto Him with their tongues.
(37) For their heart was not right with Him, neither were they steadfast in His covenant…
(40) How oft did they provoke Him in the wilderness, and grieve Him in the desert!
(41) Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
(42) They remembered not His hand, or the day when He delivered them from the enemy…
(56) Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not His testimonies:
(57) But turned back, and dealt unfaithfully like their fathers: they were turned aside like a deceitful bow.
(58) For they provoked Him to anger with their high places, and moved Him to jealousy with their graven images.
So says God in the Torah in contrast to the fantasies of the midrash and the oral traditions of liars.
One of the traditions of liars is the idolatrous “holy day” of Simchat Torah, which God never commanded. Furthermore, He never gave anyone permission to change His Laws:
Justin: Simchat Torah is Rabbinical outside of Israel …The Torah gives the Rabbis the authority to make Torah rulings and obliges Jews to follow them:
Deuteronomy 17:11
According to the sentence of the Torah which they shall teach you, and according to the judgment which they shall tell you, you shall do; you shall not decline from the sentence which they shall declare to you, to the right hand, nor to the left.
Paul: This is more perversion of the Torah, which justifies itself by the work of man-ordained rabbis who have added to God’s Word and claim it is “oral tradition,” giving them special privilege to interpret as they please – no different from the Catholic Church and its claim to spiritual authority by oral tradition contrary to the Scriptures. Here is what the Word of God actually says in this instance:
Deuteronomy 17:8-11 MKJV
(8) If a matter is too hard for you in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, matters of strife within your gates, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the LORD your God shall choose.
(9) And you shall come to the priests of the Levites, and to the judge that shall be in those days, and ask. And they shall declare to you the sentence of judgment.
(10) And you shall do according to the sentence which they declare to you from that place which the LORD shall choose. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they tell you.
(11) According to the sentence of the Law which they shall teach you and according to the judgment which they shall tell you, you shall do. You shall not turn aside from the sentence which they shall show you, to the right hand or the left.
The judgment was given to the Levites, who served in the tabernacle God had ordained. The Jews no longer have either, the priesthood or the tabernacle, so they cannot substitute the contrivances of these self-appointed rabbis for His judgment.
Furthermore, the judgments the priests or judge gave was according to the Law, and not in contradiction to the Law, as we show these rabbinical judgments are.
Which brings us to “Simchat Torah.” I asked Justin: Where do you find the Torah giving any such command?
He answered:
Leviticus 23:36
Seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord; on the eighth day shall be a holy gathering to you; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord; it is a solemn assembly; and you shall do no labor in it.
In Israel Simchat Torah and Shemini Atzeret are celebrated on the same day-they are a combined holiday. Furthermore, the Shulchan Aruch mentions Simchat Torah explicitly (Orach Chayim 669).
Paul: We see no commandment there to dance and sing with Torah scrolls. The Torah strictly forbids adding to His Word:
“Never add anything to what I command you, or take anything away from it. Then you will be able to obey the commands of the LORD your God that I give you” (Deuteronomy 4:2 GW).
The “Shulchan Aruch” is another treacherous piece of spiritual knavery, abusing God’s Word. It should be burnt with fire and put away forever, for all those who would know and love the God of Israel.
Victor wrote to Justin:
“As for the tearing down of the Temple, it was the Jews who tore it down, not with their hands but with their rebellious hearts, provoking the Holy One of Israel to have it torn down because of their sins:
1 Kings 9:6-9 JPS
(6) But if ye shall turn away from following Me, ye or your children, and not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, but shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
(7) then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for My Name, will I cast out of My sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a by word among all peoples;
(8) and this house which is so high shall become desolate, and every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and when they shall say: Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?
(9) they shall be answered: Because they forsook the LORD their God, Who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt , and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them; therefore hath the LORD brought all this evil upon them.”
Notice that Justin’s answer avoids mention altogether of the Scriptures (though in other places he finds fault with the Jewish Publication Society translation, but never explains the errors of what we have quoted, giving Biblical substance to back his complaint):
Justin: “Don’t be insolent here-the wicked Roman Empire-namely Titus-was responsible for this. The fact that Jews were on a low point spiritually doesn’t excuse Rome ’s treachery. You Yeshu-types never like to quote this from the prophets:
Ovadia 1:21
And saviors shall ascend Mount Zion to judge the Mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.
Who is Esau? Rome and that which came from it. Who was Ovadia? An Edomite convert to Judaism (Talmud-Sanhedrin 39b).”
Paul: I suppose the last part is to impress us with the fact that Justin considers himself just such a convert. What we see in him, however, is a dog dressed up as a Jewish religious fanatic, having nothing to do with God or the keeping of His Law, but who is twice the child of hell of the religious Jews who have fathered him.
As for this Scripture in particular, who says we don’t like to quote it? It is quoted several times on our site. But since when can this man be counted on to speak the truth? If anything comes out of his boastful and pretentious mouth, you know it is a lie. As a Jew who knew the Torah and God said of such:
Titus 1:10-12 MKJV
(10) For there are indeed many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
(11) whose mouth you must stop, who subvert whole houses, teaching things not right for the sake of ill gain.
(12) One of them, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.
Paul Cohen
www.thepathoftruth.com
no talking sense to an ignorant, belligerent, idolatrous, beast.
Here is the hypocrisy of some Christians. How many millions of people have died at the hand of Christians? And you all “turn the other cheek?” You want to explain that, Esav? You are describing yourself. If you were a man of peace, why do you use such hostile language?
the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ’s words
There is no truth in idolatry. In fact, we know that Yeshu lived several hundred years before Christians claim he did because we know who his teacher was (Joshua ben Perachya יהושע בן פרחיה).
What we see in him, however, is a dog dressed up as a Jewish religious fanatic
I’ve been called worse things by better people. I think with you Paul we see clearly that that Theory of Evolution has serious flaws!
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees..
Well, all Jews living today are, for the most part Pharisees. So basically this is addressed to Jews. Why not say woe unto Sadducees? Are they somehow off the hook because they were a heretical group? You only go after Torah Jews? I get the feeling that Christianity is basically like the Reform and Conservative movements in that its sole existence is dedicated to whining about Orthodox Judaism. This only shows frustration and desperation.
Watch and see who collects the wages of blasphemy.
Blasphemy? First of all you need to understand that the language that you use isn’t the language of Judaism. There is another vernacular and language that is used with Torah Judaism and what you are talking about is a reaction to religion-not religion itself. All of these fancy shmancy quotes from the “NT” are famous within the Christian world but are meaningless in the context of Judaism. Your hero was Yeshu was a heretic who duped people like yourself into a life of idolatry and hatred. The Talmud described how Yeshu resorted to idolatry and brought others with him:
Sotah 47aFor you compass sea and the dry land to make one proselyte,
What22 was the incident with R. Joshua b. Perahiah? — When King Jannaeus23 put the Rabbis to death, Simeon b. Shetah was hid by his sister, whilst R. Joshua b. perahiah fled to Alexandria in Egypt. When there was peace,24 Simeon b. Shetah sent [this message to him]: ‘From me, Jerusalem, the Holy city, to thee Alexandria in Egypt. O my sister, my husband25 dwelleth in thy midst and I abide desolate’. [R. Joshua] arose and came back and found himself in a certain inn where they paid him great respect. He said: ‘How beautiful is this ‘aksania’!26 One of his disciples27 said to him, ‘My master, her eyes are narrow!’ He replied to him, ‘Wicked person! Is it with such thoughts that thou occupiest thyself !’ He sent forth four hundred horns and excommunicated him.28 [The disciple] came before him on many occasions, saying’Receive me’; but he refused to notice him. One day while [R. Joshua] was reciting the Shema’, he came before him. His intention was to receive him and he made a sign to him with his hand, but the disciple thought he was repelling him. So he went and set up a brick and worshipped it. [R. Joshua] said to him, ‘Repent’; but he answered him, ‘Thus have I received from thee that whoever sinned and caused others to sin is deprived of the power of doing penitence’. A Master has said: The disciple practised magic and led Israel astray.
(23) Alexander Jannaeus, king of Israel from 104 to 78 B.C.E., a persecutor of the Pharisees. The chronological discrepancy is obvious since he lived a century before Jesus, v. however, Sanh. (Sonc. ed.) loc. cit.
(24) On his death-bed the King advised the Queen to put her confidence in the Pharisees. V. Josephus, Ant. XIII, XV, 5.
(25) His teacher, R. Joshua.
(26) The word means ‘inn’ and ‘female innkeeper’. The Rabbi intended it in the first sense, Jesus in the second.
(27) MSS.: ‘Jesus’.
(28) A horn is blown at the ceremony of excommunication. The large number used on this occasion indicated the extreme severity of the penalty.
(29) One must learn to control it so as to avoid extremes.
This is describing Christians for sure. Do you really think that Orthodox Jews are going around looking for converts? This statement makes no sense, and other Christians have told me as such.
you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves
Is this from a Stephen King novel? Christians and their hell obsessions. I think the reason for this is explain in the following Gemara (Talmud):
Yeshu’s punishment in the world to comeDoes God make Himself one with the world? Isn’t Israel part of and acting like the world? Why else does Israel look to the world for help? Wouldn’t Israel be looking to God if it were one with Him?
Gittin 57a
גיטין
נ”ז-א
Onkelos son of Kolonikos20 was the son of Titus’s sister. He had a mind to convert himself to Judaism. He went and raised Titus from the dead by magical arts, and asked him; ‘Who is most in repute in the [other] world? He replied: Israel. What then, he said, about joining them? He said: Their observances are burdensome and you will not be able to carry them out. Go and attack them in that world and you will be at the top as it is written, Her adversaries are become the head21 etc.; whoever harasses Israel becomes head. He asked him:(20) V. A.Z. (Sonc. ed.) p. 55, n. 1.
(21) Lam. I, 5.
What is your punishment [in the other world]? He replied: What decreed for myself. Every day my ashes are collected and sentence is passed on me and I am burnt and my ashes are scattered over the seven seas. He then went and raised Balaam by incantations. He asked him: Who is in repute in the other world? He replied: Israel. What then, he said, about joining them? He replied: Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their prosperity all thy days for ever.1 He then asked: What is your punishment? He replied: With boiling hot semen.2 He then went and raised by incantations the sinners of Israel.3 He asked them: Who is in repute in the other world? They replied: Israel. What about joining them? They replied: Seek their welfare, seek not their harm. Whoever touches them touches the apple of his eye. He said: What is your punishment? They replied: With boiling hot excrement, since a Master has said: Whoever mocks at the words of the Sages is punished with boiling hot excrement. Observe the difference between the sinners of Israel and the prophets of the other nations who worship idols. It has been taught: Note from this incident how serious a thing it is to put a man to shame, for God espoused the cause of Bar Kamza and destroyed His House and burnt His Temple.
(1) Deut. XXIII, 7.
(2) Because he enticed Israel to go astray after the daughters of Moab. V. Sanh. 106a.
(3) [MS.M. Jesus].
Apparently Christians are obsessed with hell (Gehinnom) because that is where your hero ended up. It is understandable why someone who thinks about Yeshu all day long would also think about Gehinnom-that is his abode.
You have a lot of questions for someone who knows all of the answers! I think the problem is that you are lacking a formal Jewish education. G-d interacts with the world-providence השגחה פרטית. Israel looks to help from G-d:I think what really bothers you and for that matter Muslims and other non-Jews, is the idea that the Nation of Israel has a unique role the world.
Psalms Chapter 121
1. A Song of Maalot. I will lift up my eyes to the mountains. From where does my help come?
2. My help comes from the Lord, who made heaven and earth.
ספר תהילים פרק קכא
(א) שיר למעלות אשא עיני אל ההרים מאין יבא עזרי
(ב) עזרי מעם יהוה עשה שמים וארץ
Exodus 19:6 And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the people of Israel.“Gay pride” parades…
ספר שמות פרק יט
(ו) ואתם תהיו לי ממלכת כהנים וגוי קדוש אלה הדברים אשר תדבר אל בני ישראל
Israel is a secular country. America, with a Christian majority has a very similar problems! Wanna explain that one?
…who deny and mock the God of Israel?
This is you Paul.
But Israel and the Torah, being two of Justin’s gods,…
I see Christians come through here regularly-are you going to tell me that staunch Christians don’t worship Israel? Your ploy of “Jewish idolatry” only works when talking about the early Christians.
play the part of the hero that he might receive praise of men.
You are the missionary-don’t play innocent. You have a “platform” of spiritual terror against Jews. You mock my stance because you don’t have the ability to defend against it.
his efforts to defend Israel and the Torah bring shame on both…
I love it how Christians like to play “Big Daddy Adviser!” You honor Israel and the Torah, Paul? You burn the Torah in your heart, and your fellow Christians have burned Torah scrolls in the past. You are not in a position to give warnings about whom G-d’s wrath is directed at.
The oral tradition is always wrong when it goes against His Recorded Word.
It was Jewish sages who chose the books of the Scriptures and their order. Go back and read our previous discussions. Your statement here is a contradiction. Furthermore the Torah doesn’t say how to perform the commandments listed within it. This is what heretics like you want-to confuse Jews and prevent them from performing the will of G-d. Nice trick.
Lacking contact with God, the Jews proceeded to add their own carnal thoughts and interpretations to the Tenach, which, whether oral or written, represent the erroneous opinions of men and are not the Word of God.
Substitute the word “Jew” with the name “Paul” (you or the original one) and then this sentence is correct!
It is self-righteous, self-important, wicked nonsense, believed by those who vaunt themselves in such evils.
This is a jealous tantrum against the Nation of Israel-the mark of Cain. Just as Cain killed Abel in a jealous tantrum-so you, Paul, stab away at your own nation in a pathological frenzy.
they try to substitute for their lack by making up lying stories, which dishonor Him, and His Book stands as witness against them, to their shame.
You are referring to the “apostles” and the “New Testament?” Go and read my reply above-this is a jealous rant. You could care less about “The One who wrote the Torah.” Stop pretending that you care about Judaism and it’s tenants.
I want to comment here that if you quote any other source than the Orthodox Jewish (Artscroll, Soncino, ect.) I simply won’t reply to your comments. Here is an example of why.
The King James version of the “Bible” says:
Exodus 13:18Here is the Artscoll version:
But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea:
and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt.
the 21st Century version:
But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red Sea; and the children of Israel went up by five in a rank out of the land of Egypt.
And the Children of Israel were armed when they went up from Egypt.The word וחמושים in Hebrew can mean either “armed” or “a fifth.” This entirely depends on how it is interpreted or “translated.” However, it cannot mean harnessed or “went up by five” because m-chumash is a passive word-something was done to it-therefore it means “a fifth” not “by five.” Whoever translated this is wrong, without involving Rashi or Jewish commentators. That is why I told you to quote from the Artscroll. If you are going to criticize Orthodox Torah Judaism, that you cannot achieve this by presenting translations from other groups!
ספר שמות פרק יג
(יח) ויסב אלהים את העם דרך המדבר ים סוף וחמשים עלו בני ישראל מארץ מצרים
He never gave anyone permission to change His Laws:
“Christmas” and Satan-Claus were concocted by men. Perhaps you should address that. Simchat Torah and Shemini Atzeret are celebrated on the same day in Israel-go read previous discussions. You don’t observe Shemini Atzeret anyway, so don’t pretend to care about “His Laws.”
man-ordained rabbis
Rabbinical Ordination is a tradition passed down from Moses to Joshua, ect. You are the Bible-thumper-go check your sources. Furthermore I gave you the source from the Torah that gives Jewish sages the authority to interpret and institute enactments. Here is a passage from Esther which contradicts your claims:Esther Chapter 9
25. But when Esther came before the king, he commanded by letters that his wicked plot, which he devised against the Jews, should return upon his own head, and that he and his sons should be hanged on the gallows.Paul, here it talks about what happens to people who spend all of their time bad-mouthing and plotting against the Jews. It also talks about, in Jewish Scriptures, the fact that Jews themselves instituted a holiday that is not specifically mentioned in the Five Books of Moses!
26. Therefore they called these days Purim after the name of Pur. Therefore for all the words of this letter, and of that which they had seen concerning this matter, and which had come to them,
27. The Jews ordained, and took upon them, and upon their seed, and upon all who joined themselves to them, so as it should not fail, that they would keep these two days according to their writing, and according to their appointed time every year;
The Jews no longer have either, the priesthood or the tabernacle,
Yes, the Wicked Roman Empire and its spiritual offshoots had tried their best to knock over the humble Booth of David but they haven’t and will not succeed.
Furthermore, the judgments the priests or judge gave was according to the Law,
Yes! And that includes their judgment of Yeshu.
The “Shulchan Aruch” is another treacherous piece of spiritual knavery, abusing God’s Word.
Substitute “Shulchan Aruch” with “The New Testament” and add a few more derogatory remarks and then you have the truth.
to impress us with the fact that Justin considers himself just such a convert
Nope-I am pointing out that the prophet Ovadia, who was a convert, is seldom quoted by Thumpers because they don’t want to (or don’t know) show that a convert to Judaism had prophesied doom for that nation he came from-because of its abuse of Israel. You, like all missionaries quote what is convenient to you-you don’t accept scriptures as a whole, as the Jews did at Mount Sinai. This shows the truth of the Mishrash I quoted before about all other nations rejecting the Torah, but the Jews innocently and faithfully agreeing.
twice the child of hell of the religious Jews who have fathered him
Once, twice, three times a lady? This is Christianity in all its inbred stupidity. Stop with this hell crap-hell is only for Christians.
But since when can this man be counted on to speak the truth?
This man? Huh? Ovadia was a prophet! Hypocrite! Phony Thumper! Heretic! Christian!
Titus 1:10-12 MKJV
especially those of the circumcision,
It is a commandment in the Torah to be circumcised. Titus was a murderous monster-and the heretics have dared name a “book” after him? Why not name a chapter “Satan,” “Jezebel,” or “Ahmadinejad?” Read the Tanach and then the “New Testament.” Do you not sense a difference? One sense you feel is the Divine and the other profane.
I have given you my bio in these discussions. If you do not tell me your background, Paul, then I simply won’t respond to or publish your response. I think that is a fair request.
______________________________________________________________
Paul’s original letter:
Answering a Twofold Child of Hell
Justin, there is no talking sense to an ignorant, belligerent, idolatrous, beast. In your perversion and senseless twisting of everything we say you demonstrate the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ’s words:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves” (Matthew 23:15).
For the sake of those who may read your blog (if there are any), and for those who come to our site, I will comment on several of your darkened expressions that provide a worthy platform for illumination by the Light of all men.
We say to those who read these words: Watch and see who collects the wages of blasphemy. If we are what Justin says we are, surely we will collect those wages. But if Justin has mocked and cursed the LORD, then God will scorn him and his curses will fall on his own head. It will not be long before all is made known, even as it is presently for those with eyes to see.
First comment:
“The Torah, Israel , and G-d are One”
Spoken like the true idolater and pretentious sycophant he is.
Does God make Himself one with the world? Isn’t Israel part of and acting like the world? Why else does Israel look to the world for help? Wouldn’t Israel be looking to God if it were one with Him?
Is Israel one with the Torah? “Gay pride” parades, rock-throwing lawless religious fanatics, and fearful God-deniers who will give the land God gave them to the Muslims, who deny and mock the God of Israel? Where does anyone get the idea that these attitudes reflect what is commanded in the Torah?
But Israel and the Torah, being two of Justin’s gods, have made him blind to reality and God’s righteousness. Justin has no use for either of his objects of worship, except that they give him a platform to play the part of the hero that he might receive praise of men. Meanwhile, his efforts to defend Israel and the Torah bring shame on both, and the wrath of God on him.
Justin: “If you read Rashi, which brings information that is missing in other interpretations other than Orthodox Judaism, he explains that it was an angel within the bush that spoke out to Moses NOT G-d Himself. This is how mistranslation and misinterpretation misleads and leads one to go off the path of Judaism. If you don’t refer to the Oral tradition, it is no wonder you err in your understanding of Jewish Scriptures.”
Paul: Rashi is rash, and wrong, according to Moses, who reports what happened at the bush:
“And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God” (Exodus 3:6 MKJV).
No one but God can claim to be God, without lying, and God does not send liars to speak on His behalf. The oral tradition is always wrong when it goes against His Recorded Word.
Justin: “The past 2,000 years have been without prophesy. Because of the decline in generations, that which was understood and transmitted verbally is now written down.”
Paul: The past 2,000 years the Jews have been without prophecy. Which, in timing, is a huge clue to why that is so, but that is lost on a dog. (Now the prophetic word has come back to Israel : The Key for Israel and the Jew.)
Lacking contact with God, the Jews proceeded to add their own carnal thoughts and interpretations to the Tenach, which, whether oral or written, represent the erroneous opinions of men and are not the Word of God.
Justin: “Essentially this Midrash explains that G-d offered all of the nations the Torah and each had an excuse why it didn’t suit them. The Jews, before knowing what it was eagerly accepted it because they wanted to fulfill they will of G-d.”
Paul: Who believes this crap? It is self-righteous, self-important, wicked nonsense, believed by those who vaunt themselves in such evils. It is certainly not what the Word of God says; not even close.
Here is what the one who wrote much of the Torah had to say to the nation who inherited it:
Deuteronomy 31:26-27 MKJV
(26) Take this Book of the Law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, so that it may be there for a witness against you.
(27) For I know your rebellion and your stiff neck. Behold, while I am still alive with you today, you have been rebellious against the LORD. And how much more after my death?
Isn’t it something how those who seek to worship the Torah for their own glory pervert It instead? Instead of obeying God and receiving the high honor of His calling and great benefits that come by walking in His ways, they try to substitute for their lack by making up lying stories, which dishonor Him, and His Book stands as witness against them, to their shame.
When God made a nation out of Israel in the furnace of Egypt , did they want to fulfill His will? Even if they said they wanted to, what was the reality? Here is but a sampling of what God has said of the matter:
Psalms 78:1-72 KJV
(5) For He established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a Law in Israel , which He commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
(6) That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:
(7) That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep His commandments:
(8) And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.
(9) The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle.
(10) They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in His Law;
(11) And forgat His works, and His wonders that He had shewed them.
(12) Marvellous things did He in the sight of their fathers, in the land of Egypt , in the field of Zoan.
(13) He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through; and he made the waters to stand as an heap.
(14) In the daytime also He led them with a cloud, and all the night with a light of fire.
(15) He clave the rocks in the wilderness, and gave them drink as out of the great depths.
(16) He brought streams also out of the rock, and caused waters to run down like rivers.
(17) And they sinned yet more against Him by provoking the most High in the wilderness.
(18) And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
(19) Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?
(20) Behold, He smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can He give bread also? can He provide flesh for his people?
(21) Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel ;
(22) Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in His salvation:
(23) Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven…
(30) They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,
(31) The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel .
(32) For all this they sinned still, and believed not for His wondrous works.
(33) Therefore their days did He consume in vanity, and their years in trouble.
(34) When He slew them, then they sought Him: and they returned and enquired early after God.
(35) And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
(36) Nevertheless they did flatter Him with their mouth, and they lied unto Him with their tongues.
(37) For their heart was not right with Him, neither were they steadfast in His covenant…
(40) How oft did they provoke Him in the wilderness, and grieve Him in the desert!
(41) Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
(42) They remembered not His hand, or the day when He delivered them from the enemy…
(56) Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not His testimonies:
(57) But turned back, and dealt unfaithfully like their fathers: they were turned aside like a deceitful bow.
(58) For they provoked Him to anger with their high places, and moved Him to jealousy with their graven images.
So says God in the Torah in contrast to the fantasies of the midrash and the oral traditions of liars.
One of the traditions of liars is the idolatrous “holy day” of Simchat Torah, which God never commanded. Furthermore, He never gave anyone permission to change His Laws:
Justin: Simchat Torah is Rabbinical outside of Israel …The Torah gives the Rabbis the authority to make Torah rulings and obliges Jews to follow them:
Deuteronomy 17:11
According to the sentence of the Torah which they shall teach you, and according to the judgment which they shall tell you, you shall do; you shall not decline from the sentence which they shall declare to you, to the right hand, nor to the left.
Paul: This is more perversion of the Torah, which justifies itself by the work of man-ordained rabbis who have added to God’s Word and claim it is “oral tradition,” giving them special privilege to interpret as they please – no different from the Catholic Church and its claim to spiritual authority by oral tradition contrary to the Scriptures. Here is what the Word of God actually says in this instance:
Deuteronomy 17:8-11 MKJV
(8) If a matter is too hard for you in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, matters of strife within your gates, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the LORD your God shall choose.
(9) And you shall come to the priests of the Levites, and to the judge that shall be in those days, and ask. And they shall declare to you the sentence of judgment.
(10) And you shall do according to the sentence which they declare to you from that place which the LORD shall choose. And you shall be careful to do according to all that they tell you.
(11) According to the sentence of the Law which they shall teach you and according to the judgment which they shall tell you, you shall do. You shall not turn aside from the sentence which they shall show you, to the right hand or the left.
The judgment was given to the Levites, who served in the tabernacle God had ordained. The Jews no longer have either, the priesthood or the tabernacle, so they cannot substitute the contrivances of these self-appointed rabbis for His judgment.
Furthermore, the judgments the priests or judge gave was according to the Law, and not in contradiction to the Law, as we show these rabbinical judgments are.
Which brings us to “Simchat Torah.” I asked Justin: Where do you find the Torah giving any such command?
He answered:
Leviticus 23:36
Seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord; on the eighth day shall be a holy gathering to you; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord; it is a solemn assembly; and you shall do no labor in it.
In Israel Simchat Torah and Shemini Atzeret are celebrated on the same day-they are a combined holiday. Furthermore, the Shulchan Aruch mentions Simchat Torah explicitly (Orach Chayim 669).
Paul: We see no commandment there to dance and sing with Torah scrolls. The Torah strictly forbids adding to His Word:
“Never add anything to what I command you, or take anything away from it. Then you will be able to obey the commands of the LORD your God that I give you” (Deuteronomy 4:2 GW).
The “Shulchan Aruch” is another treacherous piece of spiritual knavery, abusing God’s Word. It should be burnt with fire and put away forever, for all those who would know and love the God of Israel.
Victor wrote to Justin:
“As for the tearing down of the Temple, it was the Jews who tore it down, not with their hands but with their rebellious hearts, provoking the Holy One of Israel to have it torn down because of their sins:
1 Kings 9:6-9 JPS
(6) But if ye shall turn away from following Me, ye or your children, and not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, but shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
(7) then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for My Name, will I cast out of My sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a by word among all peoples;
(8) and this house which is so high shall become desolate, and every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and when they shall say: Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?
(9) they shall be answered: Because they forsook the LORD their God, Who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt , and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them; therefore hath the LORD brought all this evil upon them.”
Notice that Justin’s answer avoids mention altogether of the Scriptures (though in other places he finds fault with the Jewish Publication Society translation, but never explains the errors of what we have quoted, giving Biblical substance to back his complaint):
Justin: “Don’t be insolent here-the wicked Roman Empire-namely Titus-was responsible for this. The fact that Jews were on a low point spiritually doesn’t excuse Rome ’s treachery. You Yeshu-types never like to quote this from the prophets:
Ovadia 1:21
And saviors shall ascend Mount Zion to judge the Mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.
Who is Esau? Rome and that which came from it. Who was Ovadia? An Edomite convert to Judaism (Talmud-Sanhedrin 39b).”
Paul: I suppose the last part is to impress us with the fact that Justin considers himself just such a convert. What we see in him, however, is a dog dressed up as a Jewish religious fanatic, having nothing to do with God or the keeping of His Law, but who is twice the child of hell of the religious Jews who have fathered him.
As for this Scripture in particular, who says we don’t like to quote it? It is quoted several times on our site. But since when can this man be counted on to speak the truth? If anything comes out of his boastful and pretentious mouth, you know it is a lie. As a Jew who knew the Torah and God said of such:
Titus 1:10-12 MKJV
(10) For there are indeed many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
(11) whose mouth you must stop, who subvert whole houses, teaching things not right for the sake of ill gain.
(12) One of them, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.
Paul Cohen
www.thepathoftruth.com
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