AJCongress Supports Accused Aipac Spy, Rosen and Proposition 8 Anti-Gay Proponent
On November 24th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Taming Korach said:
“American Jews cannot reconcile their loyalties to the U.S. and Israel”
-Richard-don’t you mean YOUR disloyalty to Israel?
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On November 24th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Richard Silverstein said:
@Taming Korach: Oh, so your view of Zionism and Jewish identity calls for you to betray your country if a U.S. government official offers you secret documents which might possibly save the lives of unknown Israelis? Is that the game you’re playing? That my loyalty to my own country means disloyalty to Israel?
Nah, I’m not playing that game. I am loyal to my country while I am also a Zionist. Israel, in my view, does not demand betrayal of my country. Anyone in Israel or here in the U.S. that sees things differently is betraying both this country and a tolerant, diverse & balanced interpretation of Zionism.
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On November 24th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Taming Korach said:
@Richard
Zionism was predicated on the idea that Jews would settle the Land of Israel. Israel’s nation anthem says “A Jewish soul still yearns.” You are hostile towards settlers and you yourself don’t live in Israel! How are you a “Zionist?”
If you could only be a Jew OR an American, which would you choose? I think those of you who identify with the left have apparently conveniently solved their identity crisis’s! Tel Aviv University was built on a Muslim village-how is that “tolerant, diverse & balanced?”
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On November 25th, 2008 at 12:27 am
Richard Silverstein said:
@Taming Korach: Are you really claiming that the 8-9 million Jews who’ve chosen to live in the Diaspora cannot be Zionists? Do you realize how counter-productive such a notion is to Zionism itself? Zionism doesn’t only need Jews to settle in Israel. It needs Jews to support Israel in the Diaspora as well.
And when I say I’m a Zionist, that doesn’t mean I’m not a Diasporist as well. In other words, Jewish identity is a balance bet. these 2 poles. I entirely reject the notion that a Jew must be one or the other but cannot be both.
Being Jewish is not an “either/or” proposition; it is an “and also” proposition.
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On November 25th, 2008 at 6:54 am
Taming Korach said:
@Richard
“Are you really claiming that the 8-9 million Jews who’ve chosen to live in the Diaspora cannot be Zionists?”
-I am claiming that they can be armchair Zionists not Zionists. Zionism is the settlement by Jews of the Land of Israel.
“Do you realize how counter-productive such a notion is to Zionism itself?”
-No. Your notion is counter-productive to Zionism.
“these 2 poles.”
-You mean bi-polar? Is that why so many Jews in the diaspora have an identity crisis?
“I entirely reject the notion that a Jew must be one or the other but cannot be both.”
-Sounds like you choose whatever truth is comfortable to you!
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On November 25th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Richard Silverstein said:
@Taming Korach: Yr definition of Zionism is simply WRONG. Any Jew can be a Zionist as long as they support the State of Israel & believe it plays a major role in Jewish life. That is the definition of Zionism. Zionism SUPPORTS the settlement of Jews in Israel, but to say that Zionism IS the settlement of Jews in the land reduces the movement to a shell of what it actually is.
Diaspora Zionists are not “armchair” Zionists. They are Zionists plain & simply & I resent you claiming that a Diaspora Zionist is less a Zionist than one who settles the land. I simply refuse to recognize or concede yr mangling of Zionism as I know it. You’re welcome to yr own definition. But it outmoded, doctrinaire, & increasingly irrelevant either to the Jewish Diaspora or Israel itself.
No, the identity crisis is actually Israel’s. Will it be a Jewish supremacist society or a democratic one honoring all citizens regardless of ethnicity & religion. That’s a massive identity crisis. Any identity crisis we have is minor in comparison.
you choose whatever truth is comfortable to you!
No, unlike you I see Judaism and Zionism as a continuum, not as a black and white unidimensional entities. Zionism has ALWAYS allowed for & even encouraged the existence of a ZIonist Diaspora. You cannot erase or dismiss this history as hard as you may try.
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On November 26th, 2008 at 2:54 am
Taming Korach said:
@Richard
"Yr definition of Zionism is simply WRONG."
-I don't agree. Anyhow, the proof is in the pudding: the Jewish population in Israel has surpassed that the USA. Assimilation is a major problem that people there are looking away from.
"reduces the movement to a shell of what it actually is."
-Zionism has become reduced to a shell BECAUSE people don't move here! Much of the controversy has to do with population blocks. There aren't enough Jews!
"I resent you claiming that a Diaspora Zionist is less a Zionist than one who settles the land."
-Well, you can be resentful but that is simply the truth! Apparently you don't know what we go through here on a daily basis.
"increasingly irrelevant either to the Jewish Diaspora"
-The Jewish Diaspora is becoming increasingly irrelevant. You can write a capital "D" now-it's becoming a "d" gradually!
"No, the identity crisis is actually Israel’s."
In the past 10 years I have seen countless Jewish kids from USA and other places who have serious issues-mostly self-esteem and lack of Jewish knowledge. Because their parents (people who are your age) refuse to address this, they continue on in the darkness.
"Will it be a Jewish supremacist society or a democratic one"
-This is an issue that all the Jews face: Hellenism. For 2,000 years Jews desired to return to their ancient homeland. In the Amidah, it says to "return our judges as they were at the beginning." This is a reference to Torah judges-NOT democracy. Those who founded the State Of Israel were not religious-neither in knowledge or practice-they were Hellenized Jews-just like most Jews in the world-including Richard. The fact that Judaism has been buried in another philosophy is an indication that what is going on is actually occupation. The Jewish mind is being occupied by a foreign philosophy. It is actually more series than an identity crisis-it's identity theft!
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On November 26th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Richard Silverstein said:
@Taming Korach:
the Jewish population in Israel has surpassed that the USA.
The Jewish population of the U.S. is not declining, nor is it’s influence in world Jewry. And if the Jewish population of Israel is rising it is largely because of Haredi Jews who have large families. This in turn will turn Israel away from its secular-democratic roots & further distance Israel from the Diaspora.
The fact that you see the Diaspora as irrelevant to Israel indicates how far you, and Zionists like you have come from the original tenets of Zionism. It also indicates the increasing isolation of Israel fr. world Jewry & the world in general. This is a big problem for you & for Israel, though you will deny it forcefully.
Those who founded the State Of Israel were not religious-neither in knowledge or practice-they were Hellenized Jews
Now, you’re starting to sound like the settlers who use precisely this sort of terminology to attempt to smear secular Jews. I am not a Hellenized Jew. I know just as much as you about my tradition & I won’t have you or anyone like you diminish my knowledge or my connection to my tradition. You are on very thin ice in terms of violating my comment rules.
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On November 28th, 2008 at 2:51 am
Taming Korach said:
@Richard
"The Jewish population of the U.S. is not declining, nor is it’s influence in world Jewry."
-on the contrary:
Jerusalem Post: US Jewish population shrinking, aging surveyAnd if the Jewish population of Israel is rising it is largely because of Haredi Jews
Oct. 9, 2002
By MELISSA RADLER
NEWYORK The Jewish population in the US has shrunk by more than 5 percent in the past decade and aged by four years, according to the results of the largest study of American Jewry ever conducted. The 2000-2001 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS), a portion of which was released yesterday by the United Jewish Communities, found a total US Jewish population of 5.2 million, compared to 5.5 million in 1990. The median age of American Jews increased over the past decade to 41 from 37, and Jewish families were found to have had an average of just 1.8 children below the replacement level of 2.1.
-This is correct:
Jerusalem Post: Birthrate up for Jews, down for Muslims"you see the Diaspora as irrelevant to Israel"
Judy Siegel-Itzkovich , THE JERUSALEM POST
Nov. 6, 2007
The highest rates are in haredi towns such as Modi'in Illit (Kiryat Sefer) and Betar Illit, with an average of eight children per woman, and in Beduin towns such as Tel Sheva (6.8), Rahat and Arara. The least fertile cities were Ariel (1.7), Kiryat Yam, Tirat Carmel, Kiryat Bialik and Upper Nazareth.
-This is not the case-Jews living outside of Israel are highly relevant. I am claiming that they are making themselves irrelevant by assimilating.
"Israel fr. world Jewry & the world in general"
-Perhaps this is correct, but Jews have always been outsiders, as it says "here is a nation that dwells in isolation." Jews have been on the outside for about 4,000 years, largely because Jews cling to a different set of values than other peoples of the world.
"Now, you’re starting to sound like the settlers..."
-All Jews living in Israel are "settlers." This is a fact. The future for Jews (and non-Jews) in Israel will be determined by expansion into controversial land areas.
-I understood this to be a liberal "pluralistic" forum. I am trying to express a well-rounded view of the situation. Honesty is my only excuse.
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On November 28th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Richard Silverstein said:
@Taming Korach: Actually, let’s lv. aside numbers & all that other stuff. I’ll make a flat out statement. Israel is becoming less & less important in the context of world Jewry. And the longer it fights the Arabs & engages in bloody mayhem the less world Jewry cares about Israel. Every time a settler goon writes “Mohammed pig” on a mosque wall another Diaspora Jew says: “I’m not going to have anything to do with Israel. A pox on both their houses.” At some pt., Israel could become entirely irrelevant or, has v’halilah, cease to exist.
I am claiming that they are making themselves irrelevant by assimilating.
No, being the outmoded Zionist that you are you believe that merely by existing in the Diaspora that Jews are assimilating. Ergo, the only place that Jews will not assimilate is Israel. The utter fallacy of this statement is that Israel does not make Jews Jews. In fact, many Israelis represent the basest forms of Jewish thought & belief.
The future for Jews (and non-Jews) in Israel will be determined by expansion into controversial land areas
Ah, I didn’t know you were a settler symp. That puts things into pretty good context for my readers. Thanks for letting us know yr true colors.
I am trying to express a well-rounded view of the situation.
Well-rounded? Hardly. Your views are quite conventional, unsurprising & backward thinking in both a Jewish & Zionist context. I wouldn’t disagree that this is a “liberal pluralistic forum.” But yr views surely are not.
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On November 29th, 2008 at 8:34 am
Taming Korach said:
@Richard
"Israel is becoming less & less important in the context of world Jewry."
-The latest and largest census of North American Jewry produced figures that were so astoundingly negative that they "lost the data." Being that Israel is the center of Torah study and that the population and wealth is increasing, I am not sure how your statement is correct or even relevant.
"Every time a settler goon writes “Mohammed pig”"
-This kind of juvenile behavior is certainly not becoming of Jews. However, the Arabs are not innocent either. Mohammad himself tried to convert Jews to Islam unsuccessfully. What about Samir Kuntar who was convicted in an Israeli court for murder of an Israeli policeman, Eliyahu Shahar, 31 year-old Danny Haran, and Haran's 4-year-old daughter, Einat Haran? He was also convicted of indirectly causing the death of two-year-old Yael Haran by suffocation, as her mother, Smadar, tried to quiet her crying while hiding from Kuntar. You present Israelis as being the only guilty party.
"Israel does not make Jews Jews"
-I agree. But what does make Jews Jews, Richard? Also, isn't America is making Jews Christians!
"many Israelis represent the basest forms of Jewish thought & belief."
-If someone wrote this on your website, you would call them an anti-Semite. This is a sweeping categorical accusation. Israel took in Jewish refugees from Europe-who tried to annihilate World Jewry-whose "though and belief" you have inculcated and now advocate (the Enlightenment). Don't forget that the USA turned away Jews from the SS St. Louis in 1939-several hundred of who were later murdered. Is that not a "base" action?
"expansion into controversial land areas"-I said this
-It has nothing to do with sympathy. It is not political. It is about crowdedness, which is something Jews there don't understand. I did fundraising for Jewish groups for 10 years. I realize most Jews there no little about the daily life here. Many of the people living in the territories are not religious! Over 200,000 are US citizens!
"yr true colors."
-My colors are blue and white. Yours?
"Your views are quite conventional..."
The same could be said about yours by reading your blog's responses.
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On November 29th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Richard Silverstein said:
@Taming Korach: Pls. read my comment rules & stay on topic. THe thread is about Steve Rosen and AJ Congress. I don’t know how you got to Samir Kuntar, but it’s WAY off topic. Stay on topic.
America is NOT making Jews Christians. America has a thriving Jewish life and culture. The fact that you’ve given up on it doesn’t mean the rest of us have to join you.
I document the baseness of Jewish belief whether those beliefs are proferred by American or Israeli Jews. Pointing out that there are Israelis whose views of Judaism are base is NOT anti-Semitic. If you think it is, that’s yr problem not mine. Perhaps I should’ve used the word “some” rather than “many.” But the fact is that there are tens of thousands of Israeli Jews (& American Jews for that matter) whose views of Judaism are twisted & perverted & nursed by hate and blood vengeance.
The Holocaust has nothing to do with this & again is a non sequitur on yr part.
Your colors are not blue and white, they are ORANGE.
My views are far fr. conventional. If they were conventional then I’d have a lot more readers adoring me like Charles Johnson and David Abitbol.
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On November 29th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Taming Korach:
@Richard
"I don’t know how you got to Samir Kuntar..."
-You discussed the issue of settlers and Islam. Is that on-topic? I am following the stream of our discussion.
"The fact that you’ve given up..."
-If Diaspora Jews will survive, it will be because:
1-They come back to observance and have more kids.
2-They come to Israel.
Either way, that is a win-win situation.
"I document the baseness of Jewish belief"
-Do you think Jewish belief is base? What about the idea of Tikun Olam? Perhaps you should elaborate on this statement.
"The Holocaust has nothing to do with this & again is a non sequitur on yr part."
-It is relevant. Israel would never perpetrate what the US government did with the SS St. Louis. Making USA the hero and bad-mouthing Israel does hold water in this case.
"they are ORANGE."
-My cellphone company is Orange. My passport says "State Of Israel."
"My views are far fr. conventional."
-The Reform and Conservative friends I had in college had sentiments that were similar to yours. They didn't expound as much as you do but the jist was the same.
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On November 29th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Richard Silverstein said:
@Taming Korach: Just stay on topic. This is not a discussion about Samir Kuntar, the SS St. Louis or the Holocaust. I’ve written posts on all these subjects & that’s where any thoughts you have on these subjects belong.
I didn’t say ALL Jewish belief is base. I am a strongly identified Jew. Why would I even say or believe such a thing? I said the beliefs of SOME Israeli (& Diaspora) Jews are base. You know what I mean & who I’m referring to. If you choose to misinterpret my words that’s again yr own issue, not mine.
As for your colors, your ideology is ORANGE.
You don’t have a very clear idea of my views if you claim that your friends had sentiments similar to mine. Further, among Jewish blogs there are only a handful which share my outlook while there are scores if not several hundred which are truly conventional in their outlook on Jewish identity and the I-P conflict.
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Why I’m Glad I Don’t Celebrate Christmas
On November 30th, 2008 at 1:18 am
Taming Korach said:
@Richard
With regards to the stampede-right on! That is what America has come to now. This would not have happened 20 years ago. People become more and more animalistic as time goes.
“my anti-Christmas post…”
If a Christian wrote an anti-Hanukkah post, would he be an anti-Semite? Would people tolerate that? It’s understandable why a Jew would not like Christmas, but those are sharp words! If people called you an anti-Christian, would that be as defaming as being called an anti-Semite?
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On November 30th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Richard Silverstein said:
@Taming Korach:
That is what America has come to now…People become more and more animalistic as time goes.
You’re so transparent it’s ridiculous. No “animals” in Israel, eh? No Border Police who’ve forced shepherds to have sex w. their donkeys. No Border Police who shoot 10 year old Palestinian girls point blank blowing the backs of their heads off like they did to Bassam Aramin’s daughter.
Pls. there are animals everywhere. That was the point of the post. Human beings are animals with a thin veneer of civilization. It’s true here in the U.S. & certainly no less true in Israel.
If a Christian wrote an anti-Hanukkah post, would he be an anti-Semite?
Typically clueless I’m sorry to say…I write my posts about Christmas because it is America’s holiday despite the fact that not all American’s celebrate. I write it because I am a minority & they the majority. Why would a Christian need to write an anti-Hanukah post when they hardly know anything about the holiday?
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On December 1st, 2008 at 2:01 am
Taming Korach said:
@Richard
“You’re so transparent it’s ridiculous.” “Typically clueless I’m sorry to say…”
-Usually when someone jabs before they punch it’s because they don’t have a good punch-they rely on their jab.
“I am a minority & they the majority.”
-Are we guilty in Israel for having a Jewish majority in a Jewish country? Is minority status a prerequisite for having a voice in matters?
“they hardly know anything about the holiday?”
-Most Jews don’t understand Hanukkah or any Jewish holiday for that matter. With non-Jews, they tend to pay attention when you discuss the issue and Jews don’t always care!
As a side note, I think Jews obsess about Christmas. They are more concerned with it than Christians are!
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Leviev’s Financial Collapse Puts Chabad on the Ropes
@Richard
"David Bloom, my informant on all things Leviev,"
-I think this statement basically says everything. In Hebrew we say "malshanim"-Jews who inform in other Jews to non-Jews.
"And then we can really start celebrating."
-This seems a fitting final sentence to what appears to me as a very hateful article. First of all, celebrating over the financial losses if another Jews seems vile to me. I wouldn't wish that on anyone, especially other Jews. Is that "fixing the world?" I know people who would have been lost to the Jewish world if they hadn't been a part of birthright. It seems like you despise all things that are fundamentally Jewish-Judaism and any kind of Jewish nationalism. Sad.
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On December 4th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Richard Silverstein said:
Taming Korach: What, are you nuts? Leviev’s financial woes are public knowledge in Israel & around the world. If David Bloom or I report this fact we’re “informing” on a fellow Jew? Get a life.
Hateful? Yes, I hate paying his workers $2 a day for some of the hardest work imaginable in diamond mines in Angola (which Leviev does). BTW, that’s less than the international poverty wage. And I hate security forces which kill & rape those who stand in his way (again Leviev does that too). And I hate stealing land from Palestinian farmers (again Leviev). BTW, Jeremiah and Isaiah hated Jewish iniquity too. Were they vile?
I don’t despise Judaism, but I despise extremist Jewish nationalism.
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On December 9th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Taming Korach said:
@Richard
"Jeremiah and Isaiah hated Jewish iniquity too. Were they vile?"
Jeremiah and Isaiah were both persecuted by Jews who didn't follow the Torah! They weren't vile-the iniquitous Jews who went after them were! BTW-The biggest sin the Jews committed int he Torah was not conquering the Land Of Israel.
@B.BarNavi
"I hate turning Eretz Yisrael into avoda zara."
If Jews outside of Israel intermarry with non-Jews and become part of other religions, why do they accuse Jews in Israel of idolatry for living in their ancient homeland?
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Hebron Settlers Forcibly Evicted from House of Dispute
Taming Korach:
@Richard
"Where firmness and resolve were required, vacillation ruled."
I don't get it-if US Jews, or Jews anywhere else in the world were being dragged out of their houses-ones they had NO historical claim to, wouldn't Jews around the world-especially people like you-go crazy? How comes Jews in Israel have to endure this? Where were you during the 1929 massacre, Rich? That is why the Jews population there is so low-67 Jews were murdered there. You don't mention this!
"the hooligan, the hater."
I have seens LOTS of hate on this blog-not all of it from the responders.
"putting her 12 year old daughter in a situation in which SHE could be hurt."
When Arabs do this-they are applauded! You single out the religious Jew-who has been steadfastly following his religion for 4,000 years?
"That’s hardly democracy."
Israel's Declaration Of Independence states that Israel has to be Jewish AND a democracy. That seems to be a hard balancing act-serving two masters, eh? Kind of like Jews living in the exile?
"Everything about this settler movement should revolt reasonable Jews."
Do you mean assimilated, secular Jews? I think that is what "reasonable" means in this context. Religious Jews, by and large, do not feel as you do.
@B.BarNavi
"mechalelei Hashem"
Apparently you are no son of a prophet. The biggest sin the Jews committed in the Torah was not conquering the Land of Israel. Secular Jews here are those who are desecrating G-d's name, along with people like yourself.
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