Richard Silverstein says:
May 23, 2009 at 9:57 PM
I’ll be back in one year or less to point out that I was right about Obama and Richard wrong.
Sometime in the next 8 yrs there will be peace bet. Israelis & Palestinians & two viable states. And all this will be partly or largely due to Barack Obama’s intercession. When that happens, I’ll expect you to come back here so that I can point out that I was right–all because truth is important. And I won’t do this gleefully either.
What is the point of freezing them?
A step comes before dismantling settlements. That’s freezing them. I’m patient enough to take it one step at a time. Your judgment is clouded by a demand for perfection and immediate justice.
Here is the ultimate in contradictions-a Jew quoting חז”ל-”Hazal”-the Rabbis who have written down the Pharisaic tradition of the past 2,000 years-as the title of his blog, yet who insists on advocating policies that are absolutely contradictory to Judaism. Here, the Rambam (Maimonides) writes in the Mishnah Torah:
It is forbidden to handover to gentiles the Land of Israel, a Jew, or Jewish property. Whoever does this does not have a share in The World To Come. It is permitted to kill the one does the handing over-even before he does it.רמב”ם יד החזקה-הלכות חובל ומזיק פרק ח
(ט) אסור למסור ישראל ביד גוים בין בגופו בין בממונו ואפילו היה רשע ובעל עבירות ואפילו היה מיצר לו ומצערו וכל המוסר ישראל ביד גוים בין בגופו בין בממונו אין לו חלק לעולם הבא:
(י) מותר להרוג המוסר בכל מקום ואפילו בזמן הזה שאין דנין דיני נפשות ומותר להרגו קודם שימסור אלא כשאמר הריני מוסר פלוני בגופו או בממונו ואפילו ממון קל הרי התיר עצמו למיתה ומתרין בו ואומרין לו אל תמסור אם העיז פניו ואמר לא כי אלא אמסרנו מצוה להרגו וכל הקודם להרגו זכה
Well, Richard, looks like your “non-Orthodox” education has failed you again-too bad you are to ignorant to recognize that. Unfortunately those Jews living in Israel are forced to pay the price for the one who leads the mass against the Jewish tradition.
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In the comments section, things got heated!
Richard Silverstein says:
May 23, 2009 at 9:57 PM
I’ll be back in one year or less to point out that I was right about Obama and Richard wrong.Amos says:
Sometime in the next 8 yrs there will be peace bet. Israelis & Palestinians & two viable states. And all this will be partly or largely due to Barack Obama’s intercession. When that happens, I’ll expect you to come back here so that I can point out that I was right–all because truth is important. And I won’t do this gleefully either.
What is the point of freezing them?
A step comes before dismantling settlements. That’s freezing them. I’m patient enough to take it one step at a time. Your judgment is clouded by a demand for perfection and immediate justice.
May 24, 2009 at 8:28 AM
A step comes before dismantling settlements.DICKERSON3870 says:
Isn’t it forbidden to dismantle settlements according to Jewish law?
May 24, 2009 at 3:49 PM
RE: “Isn’t it forbidden to dismantle settlements according to Jewish law?”Richard Silverstein says:
SEE THE ARTICLE: “Moses was stoned when he set Ten Commandments, researcher claims” – the “Guardian” (U.K.), 03/05/08
(EXCERPT)”…An Israeli researcher is claiming in a study published this week the prophet may have been stoned when he set the Ten Commandments in stone.
According to Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, psychedelic drugs formed an integral part of the religious rites of Israelites in biblical times.
Writing in the Time and Mind journal of philosophy, he says concoctions based on the bark of the acacia tree, frequently mentioned in the Old Testament, contain the same molecules as those found in plants from which the powerful Amazonian hallucinogenic brew ayahuasca is prepared….”
ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/05/religion.israelandthepalestinians
May 24, 2009 at 4:53 PM
Of course not, unless you follow Rabbi Meir Kahane and his ilk.Amos says:
May 27, 2009 at 7:30 AM
Kahanism has nothing to do with my comments. Here, the Rambam (Maimonides) writes in the Mishnah Torah: It is forbidden to handover to gentiles the Land of Israel, a Jew, or Jewish property. Whoever does this does not have a share in The World To Come. It is permitted to kill the one does the handing over-even before he does it.Richard Silverstein says:
May 27, 2009 at 3:45 PM
This comment is a gross violation of my comment rules. READ THEM CAREFULLY. If you violate them again you will lose yr comment privileges.Richard Silverstein says:
May 31, 2009 at 11:30 PM
Rambam, were he alive today, would be disgusted by anyone claiming that Israel must hold on to every inch of territory it conquered in 1967 even at the cost of thousands of Jewish lives. He was an infinitely most flexible thinker than any settler or settler rabbi.Amos says:
Your claim above makes Rambam out to be an acolyte of Meir Kahane, which is ludicrous.
May 27, 2009 at 7:33 AM
@DICKERSON3870Margaret says:
Yes-I read that moronic article when it was first published. It goes to show what academics in Israel will do in order to escape from their religion. Retrofitting Judaism with a baby-boomer/hippie outlook? What idiot would fall for nonsense like that?
May 28, 2009 at 10:01 AM
Amos – Look up sociopath when you have a free moment.Amos says:
May 31, 2009 at 5:55 AM
@MargaretRichard Silverstein says:
I don’t know DICKERSON3870 personally, but I think the term “sociopath” is a bit strong. I think it’s just that many people, Jews among them, have misconceptions about Judaism and it leads to outrageous statements/behavior. I think that it’s critical to check out everything on a particular subject before coming to conclusions. However, since the Torah establishes Jewish society, perhaps one who mocks its origins may, perhaps, be considered a sociopath.
May 31, 2009 at 11:32 PM
Buddy, I think she meant YOU’RE the sociopath, not Dickerson. Advocating the killing of your fellow Jews even under the guise of paraphrasing the Rambam is some pretty wingnutty behavior.Margaret says:
May 31, 2009 at 11:47 PM
Amos, I am sorry for your problems. You didn’t ask for them, but here we are, and you have them.Amos says:
June 1, 2009
Referring to someone as a sociopath is a violation of your “comment rules:”Richard Silverstein says:
1. insults, baiting, vulgarity, harassment or abuse directed toward the blog owner or other commenters are not tolerated.
I see, however, that Margaret didn’t get “reprimanded.” You even acknowledge her antagonism: “Buddy, I think she meant YOU’RE the sociopath,..”
Advocating the killing of your fellow Jews even under the guise of paraphrasing the Rambam is some pretty wingnutty behavior.
You have an article “Obama Tightens Noose Around Settlements.” This can only mean only thing-you advocate the wholesale strangulation of your fellow Jews. In my case, I was quoting one of the most influential Rabbis in Jewish history.
I am sure you are familiar with the Kamsa-Bar Kamsa story in the Talmud:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamsa_%26_Bar_Kamsa
The Talmud says specifically that because Bar Kamsa was not executed for having betrayed the Jews to the Romans, we have been exiled from our Land. The Rabbis of the Talmud (Amoraim) are many orders more significant than those of the Rambam’s generation.
He was an infinitely most flexible thinker than any settler or settler rabbi.
I’d like to remind you that Rav Ovadya, who is the current leader of Sephardic Jewry, like the Rambam was 1,000 years ago, emphatically forbade the uprooting of Gush Katif. Haredim (”ultra-orthodox”) are FAR from “settler.” Most observant Jews here hold by this outlook-not just those in the territories.
I am certainly not trying to provoke the anger of the other commentators or the moderator, but I think the rules should be applied equally.
June 2, 2009 at 7:49 PM
If I’m not mistaken this comment is Justin White a longtime troll & advocate of all manner of disgusting violence against me & some of my fellow Jews.Peter D says:
Don’t quote me, Justin, Amos or whoever you are, my comment rules. I know what they are. Do something like that again and all yr subsequent comments will be moderated. My comment rules are primiarily meant for people who engage in reasonable discourse. People like you who advocate killing Jews are treated more harshly as you deserve. I could call you a Jewish advocate of murder. But I don’t have any problem w. “sociopath” though it wouldn’t be the word I’d choose for you.
You have an article “Obama Tightens Noose Around Settlements.” This can only mean only thing-you advocate the wholesale strangulation of your fellow Jews
You’re an utter moron. He’s strangling the settlements you idiot, not the Jews who live in them. Did Sharon literally strangle the settlers removed from Gaza?? Are they still among us living & breathing??
Rav Ovadya…like the Rambam
You dare to compare Rav Ovadya with the Rambam? What a laugh! Wasn’t he the one who said that New Orleans shvartas suffered Hurricane Katrina because they were goyim who didn’t study Torah??
June 2, 2009 at 8:38 PM
And let’s not forget that Rambam was a yored.Margaret says:
June 2, 2009 at 7:05 PM
Amos, I didn’t refer to you as a sociopath; I suggested you read about sociopathy. I did so because I consider a religious imprimatur to kill others to be contrary to the social good, and, in our time, to be based on education that possibly can be challenged by further education._____________________________________________________________________________________
My second comment relates to your apparent circumstances, and wasn’t meant to be insulting, but was a further rejection of what you advocate. The anger you express does provoke emotion in return. My emotional response led to the written one, which while a rejection of your advocacy was written in sorrow about the situation.
I see your anger as arising, at least in part, from fear because of your situation. I think killing continues the problematic nature of the situation and that the belief that killing is the answer is a problem for the person who holds it.
Loyal reader Amos wrote a response to the above comment that was censored by the anti-Jewish coward, Richard. Here is Amos’s uncensored response:
I did a search on “Justin White” and I found that he was prominent on your site. I have profound respect for someone who would go out of their way to become part of the Jewish Nation. Kol ha-kvod!
In any case I am Amos and I am no troll. According to the Urban Dictionary:
One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers.
I am not trying to get a rise out of anyone-rather the opposite.
People like you who advocate killing Jews are treated more harshly as you deserve. I could call you a Jewish advocate of murder.
I don’t advocate anything other than an accurate understanding of Judaism. One example is that there is a difference between killing and murder in Judaism. If someone were to attack another intending to kill, is it murder for the defender to protect himself, even if he kills the attacker? Even secular law recognizes this. In a place with its share of conflict, it’s absolutely necessary to examine these points. Making false accusations is slanderous-both immoral and illegal.
Strangling the settlements is the same as strangling the settlers. When the Romans surrounded Masada, they did so for a reason and it was a malicious one. If someone forced you to abandon your home, you would feel violated, right? Imagine if it was another Jew who did it. Can you find me a place in Judaism that allows for this?
You dare to compare Rav Ovadya with the Rambam?
Rav Ovadya is the finest student who came from the most prestigious Sefardic yeshiva in Israel-Porat Yosef. He is the undisputed gadol ha-dor (greatest Torah leader of his generation). If you lived here you would know this. It’s not so much a comparison rather an order of succession. No Sefardic Jews follow (poskin) by the Rambam-only some Yeminite Jews do. Most Sefardic Jews do follow Rav Ovadya. The world suffers because people don’t have Torah values which come from studying!
And let’s not forget that Rambam was a yored.
There was no Jewish government at that time-no protection from Arabs aggressors. In fact, the Rabbi Judah Halevi was killed in 1140 by an Arab at the Western Wall, shortly after having come to Israel.
@Margaret
I don’t really understand most of what you tried to convey. In any case, Webster’s says:
: a sociopathic individual : psychopath
: a mentally ill or unstable person ; especially : a person affected with antisocial personality disorder
I am not antisocial by any measure. I know two languages fluently and have studied another 3 at least. Language was meant to bridge gaps between people and I strive to do so daily. Being that the remainder of your comment was incoherent, I’ll just say best wishes to you!
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