Here in this recent post by the Self-Hate Fuhrer, lil Rich, gets caught in a web of his own stupidity.
from: “Settlement is Theft, Secret IDF Report Confirms”
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Taming Korach says:
January 31, 2009 at 6:19 PM
@Richard:
If you feel that your house is built on occupied territory, then why don’t you vacate yours? You won’t! Hypocrite….
Haaretz is owned by Germans through and through-and it shows!
@Lazynative
Nonsense. Christians and Muslims read Jewish scriptures-it says that Jews will return to their homeland-which they were forced to leave by way of violence. Where were the leftists then?
@fiddler
The days of Jewish secularism are numbered-and you know this…
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Richard Silverstein says:
January 31, 2009 at 9:35 PM
Haaretz is owned by Germans through and through-and it shows!
Let it not be said that you waste any time actually trying to propound truthful or factual arguments. Haaretz is not “owned” by Germans. A German publishing company owns a minority stake. Furthermore, the German company has specifically said it has absolutely no control over anything written in the newspaper. So much for yr command of the facts. You can’t stand the idea that Israelis actually write Haaretz and advance ideas & arguments w. which you vehemently disagree. So you conveniently argue that the reason for this is that Haaretz is owned by anti-Semitic Nazis/Germans. Nice work.
If you feel that your house is built on occupied territory, then why don’t you vacate yours?
This is a non sequitur. When did I ever say that I believed this?
The days of Jewish secularism are numbered
Yes, and anti-Semites & even some Jews have said that the days of Judaism are numbered. But somehow the predictions hasn’t come true. Nor will yours. What a load of hot air you are.
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Taming Korach says:
February 1, 2009 at 2:41 PM
@Richard
1-You are comparing the “theft” of Arab lands to what the USA did with regard to the American Indians. If you believe this comparison to be so similar-”In the same sense,” “we similarly see,” and thus advocate a “final agreement” where Israel would be obligated to cede such land to Arab peoples, then logically you must expect the USA to do as such since it was you who created this comparison (not I).
2-I was talking to fiddler, but in any case it was the Haskalah bunch who broke away from the yeshiva establishment-and they succeeded. Today the vast majority of Jews are not observant, as was for about 3,800 years beforehand. Maybe they were anti-Semites because they wanted to be more European and less Semitic. Numerically facts show that the offspring of secularism are assimilating (http://www.ujc.org/page.aspx?id=33650) and the population of observant Jews is increasing. Hot air (me) has risen above apparently.
3-Both owners were Germans-Jews or non Jews-Germans. The Haskalah was most prominent in Germany and that was where anti-traditional culture took hold. If I didn’t like debating with people of different opinions, why would I comment here?
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Richard Silverstein says:
February 1, 2009 at 4:58 PM
logically you must expect the USA to do as such
Unlike Israel, the U.S. has made some attempts to repair its relations with Native Americans. It has compensated them in some cases for land thefts. Though our treatment of N.A.s was execrable & even genocidal, that is an entirely separate issue fr. what Israel has done to Palestinians. Your approach seems to be if any country in the world has committed a crime like Israel’s then no one in the world can complain about Israel until they’re resolved those other crimes. Which is of course a preposterous proposition advanced by those who have no concern for those crimes, but only wish to relieve moral pressure on Israel.
Numerically facts show that the offspring of secularism are assimilating (http://www.ujc.org/page.aspx?id=33650) and the population of observant Jews is increasing.
Pls. God tell me you’re not a statistician or demographer. You don’t know what you’re talking about. First, the population of Jews who are not observant VASTLY outnumbers the population that is observant. At this rate, it would take many decades for the observant cohort to outnumber the non-observant.
Both owners were Germans-Jews or non Jews-Germans.
I have no idea what this means. But the Schocken family were German Jews who’ve lived in Israel since the 1920s. Whether they are observant or non-observant, enlightened or non-enlightened has no bearing whatsoever on the content of their newspaper, which is considered the highest quality newspaper in Israel. The current minority owners are German non-Jews who have made a purely business investment in the company with no editorial control.
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Taming Korach says:
February 2, 2009 at 10:04 AM
@Richard
“Unlike Israel, the U.S. has made some attempts to repair its relations with Native Americans.”
Israel evacuated both Yamit and Gaza. Israeli politicians have themselves proposed a “Palestinian State.” The US, as far as I know, as only grown since 1776. Native Americans live on reserves and deal with alcoholism, obesity, and emotional/identity issues. These reservation are unquestionably part of the United States. Who has done more to repair? Should Israel, by this model, absorb all of “occupied territory” and make casinos for them to play in all day? You made this comparison initially, now you say it is separate!
it would take many decades..
Decades is peanuts in the course of a 4,000 year history. None of my friends (secular), all above 30, have any Jewish children-none. The haredim I know have 4-8 kids. That is a kind of genocide I am seeing before my eyes and amongst themselves secular Jews talk about this-I have heard it myself. Dershowitz (The Vanishing American Jew) is not observant either for that matter.
has no bearing whatsoever on the content of their newspaper
If religious Jews had founded it, would it have the same content? To borrow your phrase-”Please G-d tell me you’re not a spin-doctor.” Haaretz is a weapon against Mizrachim, the religious, and anyone who questions the secular Jewish identity. It is Big Brother written in grammatically correct Hebrew with a unsound base of Semitic/Germanic dual identity. It is the continuation of everything that went wrong in Jewish Europe.
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fiddler says:
February 2, 2009 at 12:26 PM
You’re confusing the founders, the Schocken family, with the German company that now has a stake in the paper. It was the latter Richard said had no bearing on content (although this writer disagrees: http://dada.israel.indymedia.org/newswire/display/9130/index.php).
Haaretz is a weapon etc. – puhleeze! The editors have the same right to their multiple opinions (they’re by no means a monolithic block) and editorial policy as you and I. If you don’t like it, don’t read it. I don’t watch Faux News either.
It is Big Brother written in grammatically correct Hebrew with a unsound base of Semitic/Germanic dual identity. It is the continuation of everything that went wrong in Jewish Europe.
Say, did you come up with that yourself, or did you lift it straight from Alfred Rosenberg? That’s Nazi language, plain and simple.
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Julie says:
February 2, 2009 at 4:59 PM
@
Taming Korach
I’m Canadian and I believe that our Native Americans are related to those of the Americans. I will admit that my knowledge of Native Americans is not as good as it should be BUT I don’t remember the U.S. or Canada bombing any of the reserves, in my lifetime. I have not heard of either Canada or the U.S. systematically demolishing their houses or arresting the men of the household in the middle of the night.
In 2009, no matter how bad it may be on the reserves, I think I’d prefer being a Native Amercan to a Palestian. I think they have more rights and they have options.
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Taming Korach says:
February 3, 2009 at 9:58 AM
@fiddler
Nazi language, plain and simple
Whoops fidldler-the idea actually comes from the Jewish scriptures: (Midrash Raba Exodus Chapter 1, Verse 8): The Jews in Egypt had foreign children and stopped keeping the commandment of circumcision, and said “Let’s be like the Egyptians.” It says that this is why Pharaoh then turned on the Jews before the Exodus.” It is an act of desperation to cite Nazism-I doubt anyone who comes to this blog likes Hitler whatsoever. To answer your question, you are wrong on both accounts-I didn’t invent it and didn’t get it from Alf-the idea comes straight from scriptures that are taught at yeshivas around the world. Too bad you missed out!
@Julie
I don’t remember the U.S. or Canada bombing
With all due respect, I DO remember “Palestinians” blowing themselves (and other civilian women and children) with bombs packed with nails and other metals and before making videos praising “Allah” and making a religious ceremony out of you. Apparently you have a selective memory. Perhaps Israel should make the Museum of the Palestinian and have a mock celebration of who they are and pretend to care-INSTEAD of giving their land back. Israel says the Land belongs to the Jewish People based on scriptures that billions of people on Earth recognize. In addition, it has had 2 sets of settlements uprooted along with thd withdraw from Lebanon, only to be paid back with an unprovoked military assault by militants. If you don’t choose to mention that-I will.
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fiddler says:
February 3, 2009 at 1:10 PM
The question was obviously enough rhetorical and polemical. I’m neither desperate, nor did I mean to call you a Nazi. But your accusation of Haaretz (perhaps the entire Ashkenazi establishment?) having an “unsound base of Semitic/Germanic dual identity” was far too close for my taste to the völkische ideologies (not restricted to, but most poignantly exemplified by the Nazis, see Rosenberg’s “religion of blood”, e.g.) of those times.
There were plenty of fully assimilated Jews in Europe, but while they ultimately weren’t spared from persecution I fail to see how they were in any way responsible for the shoah, as you and Exodus seem to suggest. Please don’t tell me that if they had only kept their Jewish blood and religion pure and goyim-free the Nazi “Pharaoh” wouldn’t have turned on them.
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Taming Korach says:
February 3, 2009 at 4:17 PM
@fiddler
I fail to see how they were in any way responsible for the shoah
Obviously the Nazi regime is responsible. However, just as Jews went from observant to “enlightened,” the Germans went from Christians to Nazis. There was a general lowering of religious standards. It is taught in the Israeli high school program that anti-Semitism in Europe spiked when Jews left their ghettos, abandoned observance, and sought acceptance in the mainstream German society. Germany’s “acceptance” of them was a hoax.
Please don’t tell me…
I love it when someone, in their response, has already decided to tell you how to answer them before you have had a chance! Well, it says in the Torah:
Leviticus (20:23): And you shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you; for they committed all these things, and therefore I loathed them.
Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitzhak (Rashi), the primary commentator on the Torah says:
-Exodus (10:22) 9th plague-Darkness
-Rashi-during this very dark period, the Jews who did not want to leave Egypt died-it was dark so that the Egyptians couldn’t see that G-d was punishing members of Israel.
You can’t fairly distinguish between Jews and Judaism-for over 3500 years they were one and the same.
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fiddler says:
February 4, 2009 at 6:50 AM
I’ve learned in school that correlation is not causation. Of course organised religions (the Christian churches are no better) want the decline of observancy to be responsible for nadirs of moral behaviour, conveniently forgetting that they themselves were responsible for quite a few of those, including Christian collusion with the Nazis and General Franco. That the Germans “went from Christians to Nazis” thanks to the enlightenment is ridiculous. Nazi ideology had itself distinctive religious, albeit not exactly Christian, overtones.
I can very well distinguish between ethnic Jewishness and Judaism, because many Jews themselves make that distinction. Further complicating is the issue of the various Jewish denominations theologically battling each other – the Israeli rabbinate even went as far as to recall conversions because of the recent insufficient observancy of the person.
I don’t care how matters were 3500 years ago, when entrenched tribalism was all the rage. Like everyone, Moses and all the prophets were children of their times, which alone precludes a literalistic interpretation of their writings today. Or, as Holly Near wrote, don’t let the letter of the law obscure the spirit of your love.
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Taming Korach says:
February 4, 2009 at 2:35 PM
@fiddler
I’ve learned in school that correlation is not causation.
Your teachers were wrong.
Christian churches are no better…
Christianity is a fraud second only to the secular Jewish identity.
they themselves were responsible
Yes!
That the Germans “went from Christians to Nazis” thanks to the enlightenment is ridiculous.
I had a Jewish teacher who showed us footage of Germans watching two insects fight each other to death-as part of their “survival of the fittest ideology.” Germans tried to retrofit their culture with Darwinism, which had a profound impact on the West and led to intense questioning of religion in general. Science may not be to be to blame but the “culture of science is.” You didn’t bother to point that out. Germans took it upon themselves to burn down synagogues, Torah scrolls, and uproot yeshivas that were hundreds of years old-the Christian Church never did things of that magnitude-wanting to turn an entire race of people into soap and lampshades.
Nazi ideology had itself distinctive…
This above statement is ridiculous! The swastika is called the twisted cross. Hitler, in Mein Kamph (sorry to cite it), said himself that he admired the Catholic Church:
“Here the Catholic Church presents an instructive example.”
“Here again the Catholic Church has a lesson to teach us.”
According to “Why The Jews” by Prager and Telushkin, all of the Nazi laws against Jews were originally instituted by the Church.
because many Jews themselves make that distinction.
Most Jews don’t observe the Sabbath or the kosher laws-that’s doesn’t make it right or official. As it says in Exodus (23:2):
You shall not follow a multitude to do evil;
Christianity now far outnumbers Judaism, but many if not all Jews would refute its central claims.
the Israeli rabbinate even went as far as to recall conversions
Your facts are off. The conversions (Rav Druckman) and those who sought to reverse them (Lithuanian Haredim) were all done in the Orthodox Jewish world.
I don’t care how matters were 3500 years ago,..
You are having a tantrum. Apparently the prophets and the greatest rabbis did care. Apparently G-d cared or He wouldn’t have given the prophets His Torah.
Moses and all the prophets were children of their times,…
The desire to do evil still exists and the Torah is still it’s cure (as it says in the Talmud)-we saw that with the Nazis. The prophets are far from outdated.
which alone precludes a literalistic interpretation of their writings today.
Jews don’t interpret scriptures literally-only Christians and other kinds of heretics of Judaism. You are actually right here.
Or, as Holly Near wrote,
The Torah states more eloquently:
Deuteronomy (6:5) And you shall love the Lord your G-d with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
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fiddler says:
February 5, 2009 at 9:14 AM
What you personally believe in is up to you; if some book you consider holy says the moon is made of cheese, I’m not going to convince you otherwise. Likewise I assert my right not to believe in the holiness of any book, or indeed in the existence of a God.
But a few factual points may be made.
Social Darwinism is a perversion of Darwin’s ideas. Science, just like religion, is capable of being perverted by ignorants or people with ulterior agendas. That doesn’t necessarily reflect back upon science or religion itself. Scientific materialism exists on the fringes, just like religious fundamentalism, these are incompatible with true science and religion in that they both usurp the space of the respective other and are wilfully ignorant of their own boundaries.
Enlightenment sought to ensure rationality – science – its due place. Because that place was unduly occupied by the churches it’s no wonder the pendulum initially swung the other way, but we’re long past that now. It’s only fundamentalists like yourself who’d like to swing it back again. Well, good luck with that (not).
Hitler admired the Catholic church not for their spiritual message but for their proven staying power, their all-penetrating organisation, which was/is certainly a model case for any political movement. The Nazis used the existing religious networks for their purposes – any demagogue would’ve been foolish not to do so, or even try and work explicitly against the churches. That part should sound familiar to you, as the fanatics among the WB settlers also misappropriate religion for political purposes, and political Islam does the same.
The swastika was adopted because of its ancient ornamental use in Germanic culture, its alleged symbolising the so-called “Aryan race”, originating in India, and its practical value in propaganda (ease of replication and being highly recognisable).
The religious overtones in Nazi “culture” were mostly appropriated from Nordic mythology, they were by far more sentimental kitsch than anything.
I didn’t say the conversion argument was not within the Orthodox world. It seems it’s rather between traditional and ultra-Orthodoxy. I was specifically referring to this. Israel’s rabbinic courts were involved.
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Taming Korach says:
February 6, 2009 at 6:12 AM
@fiddler
if some book you consider holy says the moon is made of cheese,
Again, people in the past several hundred years have doubted the basis of Jewish values, only to have to boomerang back at them.
my right not to believe in the holiness of any book,
Only your Holy Secular Outlook is permitted? Stop fiddling around! You sound like a teenager from the 60’s (”it’s my party and I’ll cry if I want to”).
Social Darwinism is a perversion of Darwin’s ideas.
I agree.
It’s only fundamentalists like yourself…
It is this petty labeling that undermines your argument. You were doing okay until now. You could be called a secular fundamentalist-it’s all relative. Jews who abandoned Judaism or created false interpretations of Judaism could be called fundamentalists as well-they went to extremes.
who’d like to swing it back again.
No-Hopefully Christianity will die for good. As for Jews-those who continue to assimilate will also die away. It is the Haskala that has hijacked the Jewish tradition.
That part should sound familiar to you, as the fanatics among the WB settlers also misappropriate religion for political purposes…
First and foremost is it familiar to me because I have gone out of my way to understand Judaism and the elements within it-more than you have I would imagine. What you are saying is a matter of opinion, and even Richard gets that wrong sometimes. You could say that non-Orthodox Jews in the States who criticize the settlement movement are using religion inappropriately for political purposes (like J Street). They have a half-cocked “understanding” of Judaism and that becomes a weapon against Torah Judaism. Most religious Jews support the settlements. Tel Aviv is a settlement whether you want to be honest about it or not-TAU was built on top of an Arab settlement. Haredim like Rav Ovadya have ruled it is forbidden to uproot settlements. Chabad and other Haredim (not Rav Kook) as well. The knitted kippa movement is the defacto representative of the State Of Israel and the secular elements who try to justify the settlement movement rely on their
outlook. Yisrael Beitenu (Leiberman) is a secular party-you don’t mention that for your own purposes (gotcha!). Trying to isolate the settler movement is foolish, even though there are certainly varying degrees of “enthusiasm” within it. The fact is that no one knows what the creation and existence of the State of Israel really means-not you nor I nor Richard nor the Rabbanim. According to the Torah, Jacob (the patriarch) himself wasn’t able to see what would happen with regards to the redemption of his own nation-nor do any of us.
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fiddler says:
February 6, 2009 at 2:54 PM
We’re talking past each other. I was merely saying that on theological matters we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m not going to convert, and I won’t turn you into an unbeliever either. Questions of faith are by design not accessible to rational discussion, but questions of coexistence most definitely are.
I completely reject the notion of a Great Real Estate Agent in the Sky, whether it’s motivated by Christian eschatology, Jewish equivalents of Dominionism, or Neturei Karta (although the latter are at least benign so far, for want of a moshiah).
I didn’t mention Yisrael Beitenu because the topic was the bearing of religion on secular affairs, and YB are secular, as you say. In fact, political Zionism was entirely secular from the start, and religious justifications have been supplied only in recent years to any extent.
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Taming Korach says:
February 7, 2009 at 11:10 AM
Neturei Karta (although the latter are at least benign so far..
This organization is not benign. They meet publicly with Holocaust deniers and people who are known to have assisted or have actually committed acts of violence against Jews. Iran supports Hezbollah and has for decades. Their leader denies the Holocaust. Neturei Karta was at the same conference as other known Jew haters as well. They are far from benign. Being against Zionism is not the same as supporting people who actively threaten the Jewish community.
In fact, political Zionism was entirely secular from the start, and religious justifications have been supplied only in recent years to any extent.
Not so. I know Rabbanim who are connected to the Vilna Gaon and he actually sponsored what became the beginning of the Zionist Movement:
In accordance with the Vilna Gaon’s wishes, three groups of his disciples and their families, numbering over 500, made aliyah to the Land of Israel between 1808 and 1812, a movement documented in Arie Morgenstern’s book, Hastening Redemption. This immigration is considered to be the beginning of the modern settlement of Israel.
Another lesser issue you may want to look into is the Yishuv Ha-Yashan (The Old Settlement) which existed in Israel since the destruction of the Second Temple until “secular Zionism.”
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